McGarry and Madsen. Does polybutylene need to be replaced . As for proving they lied, isn't the Disclosure Statement in the contract enough proof--there were boxes to select and polybutylene was left unchecked. Polybutylene pipes fall under the category of a material defect, and almost all states make you disclose any information related to a property defect. Choice #2: Repipe Your Home and then Sell It. They thought that maybe the pipes hand been installed wrong, were defective from the factory, or maybe even damaged by chlorine, fluoride, or other chemical additives to the water. Buy a new build with 10 year warranty. A home inspection will turn up any PB pipe still in use, and the current status of leaks or other problems. There were lawsuits including a class action lawsuit involving the pipes and disclosure issues. How far should stair nosing stick out? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybutylene. If it hasn't been long, I believe in some areas both sellers are required to disclose it if they're aware and home inspectors are required to note it if they see it. In our experience - once you have one leak, you are likely facing a systemic issue, and other leaks will follow. You and your family dont have to leave home and cool your heels somewhere while people are walking through your home. Because polybutylene pipes will fail, it's just a matter of when it will happen. In all but three states (Alaska, California and South Dakota), sellers aren't required to disclose deaths from natural causes. Or perhaps your polybutylene plumbing sprung a leak, and you are trying to decide if you should repair or replace it? However, many insurance companies do not cover the damages caused to homes due to natural disasters or fires with polybutylene pipes. The most significant historical litigation was the Cox v. Shell Oil class-action lawsuit, culminating in close to a billion dollar settlement in 1995, being paid out to thousands of homeowners over subsequent years. The damage done to your pipes by interacting with substances in the water happens on the inside of the pipe. Well Crap, Polybutylene Pipes in a House I'm Looking at Buying #10628138 10/28/15. Contact us by phone or email with any questions, or to schedule a no-obligation in-home (or remote) consultation with one of our Estimators. Disclaimer: we aren't lawyers, and aren't providing any legal advice here. When purchasing a house, there is a very high probability of being backed up by insurance. B. However, with time, these pipes faults became more evident, and different types of pipes were developed and produced that were much stronger and durable than polybutylene pipes. Is a washing machine drain hose required to be secured at the standpipe? We've done the research and found that not only would damages be costly if the pipes burst, but we would also have a hard time selling the house in the future or even obtaining homeowners insurance even if the pipes don't cause any problems because there is such a stigma against these particular pipes. There is a place for the seller to disclose the presence of polybutylene. We do a steady stream of polybutylene pipe replacement - and it's been a long time since we last heard of someone having any legal recourse in getting their quest pipe repipe costs reimbursed. Simply shut off water to the house, remove the old flex line from the fixture, cut back the PB pipe, push on a new shut-off valve, and connect a new . You'll need evidence that shows two things: 1) that the water damage existed prior to your purchasing the house; and 2) that the seller knew of and did not disclose the existing, or prior, water damage. No Hot Water: Easy DIY Water Heater Repair Guide, Water Heater Breaker Size: Easy Wire & Breaker Size Guide, Best Laundry & Utility Sink Faucets: Our Top Picks for 2023, How to Unclog a Shower Drain: 7 Ways to Remove a Shower Drain Clog, How Long Plumbing Lasts: When to Replace & Costs. landlord If the seller discloses this up front, the buyer can not request the replacement of the pipes if they wait to make an issue of it until the Inspection Period even though it is considered a defective product. << Does a home inspector look for code violations? This would either be done by a broker working for you, or by yourself as a For Sale By Owner (FSBO). Evidence of that can prove that your seller is liable includes: Timeline testimony from your contractor For more information, please see our So, you can sell your house relatively fast and quickly to these investors, as they do not rely on appraisers, lenders, or any other kind of third-party inspectors. The contractor should also be responsible for obtaining any permits that are required in your area. Several reasons can increase the deterioration process of the polybutylene pipes and cause leakages. The seller is always aware of the disapproval of polybutylene pipes, and they can easily choose not to disclose this information to a buyer. . In 2017, a new polybutylene class-action was filed with Hurt v. Shell Oil, which attempted to include homeowners left out in the prior 1995 settlement. Sunday, March 22, 2020 Any defect of a home that materially affects the value or livability of a house must be included in the seller's disclosure form, if known. Call 800-216-0132 to schedule an estimate. 0 found this answer helpful | 0 lawyers agree Helpful Unhelpful You have to prove willful intent of the sellers withholding that information from you so it will be hard to prove that in court as well. Florida case law provides that, with some exceptions, a home seller must disclose any facts or conditions about the property that have a substantial impact on its value or desirability and that others cannot easily see for themselves. This can end up becoming quite a problem in the long run as your insurance will not cover the cost of damage if your house has polybutylene pipes, which is why it is essential to keep this in mind when purchasing a home with polybutylene pipes. Can galvanized steel pipe still be used for new water lines in a house? What causes a gurgling sound when a bathtub or sink drains? These minerals are a primary reason that contributes to the deterioration of the polybutylene pipes. Why is polybutylene piping bad? Most of our repipes fall somewhere between $4,500 and $15,000. Buyers, when faced with a home with polybutylene piping have the choice of the following: Asking if the seller plans to replace the current piping with copper or; Sec 5.008 of the Texas Property Code is below. 4. If the seller chooses not to replace the polybutylene pipes, give them a release agreement to sign that protects you from all potential liability. The second option will take more time and money but it may result in a higher price for your home. real estate Call today at 954-734-7429 or 1-888-8-Insurance. Inside, your contractor will locate the pipes in your home. Seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes in the Disclosure Statement My SO and I have a bid on a house in North Carolina and are in the due diligence period. Then you will just need to choose the best one. I've got it! They were installed in almost 10 million homes at a substantial savings over the conventional copper plumbing pipes. The final eligibility deadlines for this class action expired many years ago. I'm a licensed Home Inspector, Certified Professional Inspector (CPI), Certified Master Inspector (CMI), and FHA 203k Consultant. This caused the pipes to deteriorate and become brittle on the inside. Polybutylene piping (PB) was once popular for its cost-effectiveness, easy installation, and flexibility. After all, they are so tiny. Then don't buy it. This means that you dont have to wait to find out if your buyer can get their final loan approval. Found mainly in the southern US. If all the plumbing drains have water in them and you can still smell sewer gas, what's causing the problem? And again, in 1989. What's that powdery crust on the pipe connections at the water heater? Which water pipes are an insurance problem and possibly uninsurable? They will keep the property and rent it to tenants. Mandatory disclosure (M) of pipe material (lead not specifically addressed) or lead pipes if seller determines conditions unsafe (Example: State-required form asks, "Type of plumbing system: Copper/Galvanized/Plastic/ Polybutylene./Unknown/ Other") Wisconsin Voluntary disclosure (V) of lead pipes Would we have a case since they lied on the disclosure? Better, but not a total solution. They buy houses for cash so that they dont depend on a lenders approval of their loan, unlike most buyers. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. If the Seller wants to ignore the poly issue, ask them to sign a Release Agreement, indemnifying you of all potential liability. To keep going forward I'd thought about negotiating back down to there list and put 20k in escrow to cover the replacement. There is no marketing time at all. We would have requested they replace them and if they didn't we would have walked away early in the process. I'm willing to keep going if they will cover the cost of repairs to replace them since the pipes are a ticking time bomb and most insurance won't cover you if you knew they were poly pipes. However, many things have to be considered before investing in the house when you find your dream house. McGarry and Madsen's home inspection blog for buyers of, site-built, mobile/manfuactured and modular homes. If you've had the misfortune of having your polybutylene plumbing fail, you have to choose whether to fix just the leaking section of piping, or repipe your entire home. Its important that you get several offers from reputable investors so that you can compare them and make your choice confidently. All I can really say is good luck! Looking for your dream house can be difficult; finding a home that you like and a place that has exactly what youve been looking for can be challenging and time-consuming as well. So- if you are considering a sale in the future, and your home was built at a time when poly pipes were commonly used (late 1970's through mid 1990's), we'd highly recommend being proactive and getting your plumbing checked out. Polybutylene (PB) piping was standard in homes built between 1978 and 1996. Polybutylene pipes are often used with copper fittings which can also confuse a homebuyer. financing What do you mean I cant get home insurance? We know that many houses built between 1978 and 1995 have polybutylene pipes. Whether it's snakes, mice, or bats, in most . Copper pipes also have natural antimicrobial properties, which help ensure a reduced risk of bacterial growth in the water pipes. Now You Know. The insurance usually covers the cost of damages to the home, but not damages caused by natural disasters or fires if they have polybutylene pipes. Now that you know the years that piping was used and maybe even what it looks like, you're an educated buyer who will know to ask that question and check it out for yourself before spending money on another inspection. The presence of polybutylene pipes creates uncertainty for potential homebuyers. Why is it a problem? In reality, getting polybutylene pipes replaced does not cost more than, for example, recarpeting your home would cost you. I went back over our original contract and in the Disclosure Statement the seller checked "plastic" instead of "polybutylene." By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. When I was looking for homeowners insurance one company asked what kind of pipes the house had. Is a washing machine drain hose required to be secured at the standpipe? Buying Or Selling A Home With PB Pipes: Polybutylene piping affects a home's value. In new construction, it was replaced by copper or more dependable forms of plastic pipe, such as CPVC and PEX. What are the pipes sticking out near my water valves? It is now mainly an academic exercise determining why a specific system failed and/or if an existing poly-b system may fail in the future. Asking if the seller plans to replace the current piping with copper or; Asking for a reduction in price that will cover a copper piping replacement once the home is purchased or: Looking at a home copper or up to code piping already in place. Why is there a flexible accordion pipe under the sink? Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. And how do you make sure that youre dealing with the right investor and the best offer? Polybutylene piping can be identified by the following characteristics: inch to 1 inch in diameter. Moreover, insurance professionals cannot be sure whether the pipes in your home are good or bad. The form's name, length, and required information vary by state . Can You Sell a House With Polybutylene Pipes? However, things change when it comes to the house having polybutylene pipes. A frequent by-product of the water damage was mold. Our expertise shows in every repipe we do and is with you every step of the way. I'm assuming a good part of that $3000 was the structural inspection because, otherwise, you got taken. Our work is 100% guaranteed for life, and we are fully licensed in the states where we operate. Polybutylene pipe is a gray plastic tubing that was commonly used as a water-supply plumbing pipe between 1978 and 1995, at which time it was discontinued due to reports of pipes rupturing. How would your realtor know that if it was mistakenly checked on the disclosure. So, it is recommended to discuss the option of re-piping with the seller and get it done before moving into your new home. You may have seen examples of this on television. Over 8,500 inspections completed in 20+ years. Repipe Specialists - USA. But I'm not sure how we could find that out. If they don't agree, though, we are going to have to walk away. They seemed to be a perfect material for plumbing pipes because they were inexpensive and held up well under high water pressures. Does a repipe include drain pipes? Make sure that any reviews that you rely on are authentic. What does polybutylene pipe look like? However, copper pipes are exceptionally durable and, thus, will last a long time if you use these to replace fragile polybutylene pipes. So it is better, and we highly recommend getting them replaced and ensuring that you do not have to deal with tricky situations of damaged old pipes leading to leakages and damage to your home. In order to know for certain if you have polybutylene pipes in your home, and their condition, you will need to hire a professional plumber. Polybutylene pipes are a significant inconvenience for plumbers because these pipes cracks and leakages are not easy to find. In the case of polybutylene pipes, the 70% failure rate is what matters. And if you're not home when a pipe bursts (and it will), this can result in thousands of dollars in water and structural damages. loans Insurance companies dont look at these on a case-by-case basis. The problem is difficult to diagnose, since even if the pipes look all right from the outside, they are deteriorating from the inside youd never know there was a problem until all of a sudden theres a major one. First, the buyer would need to be comfortable purchasing a home that requires extensive work to repair the damaged pipes. They should specify what materials will be used, hourly rates, and estimated time to do the work. Another option is to replace polybutylene pipes with copper pipes. This can be a good idea if you have made up your mind about purchasing the house because it is better to get the re-piping done before moving into the home. Only a licensed plumber can tell the polybutylene pipes health and estimate how long these will last without risking the house and its structural integrity. Polybutylene pipe is a gray plastic tubing that was commonly used as a water-supply plumbing pipe between 1978 and 1995, at which time it was discontinued due to reports of pipes rupturing. An investor can close more quickly. Now that weve looked at the options for selling your house with polybutylene pipes, you can apply them to your circumstances. The second option would consume some of your money and time, but the good part is that it would result in a higher selling price for your home. Contractor License Info:State license info available in, our location directory. With over 60,000 repipes completed, we've perfected ourOne Stop Repipe process: providing you with a high quality and convenient repipe experience while offering significant savings compared to traditional plumbers - plus, our work is guaranteed for life. Even though the information on this web page is provided by a qualified industry expert, it should not be considered as legal, tax, financial or investment advice. One of the most important things that need to be considered is the plumbing within the house. We are not affiliated with, and do not receive any compensation from, any of the companies or products mentioned in this blog. Another significant aspect of buying a house with polybutylene pipes is the insurance problem that might come along with it. How do you accurately find a broken water pipe leak under the floor slab? Any defect of a home that materially affects the value or livability of a house must be included in the sellers disclosure form, if known. This could potentially make you liable for lawsuits from your buyer. Cookie Notice Your second choice would be to replace any polybutylene pipes in your property and sell it the traditional way. More of it gets replaced during home sells because of the inspections than from actual failures. The breaking or cracking of pipes means that the water running through these pipes will now have a way to leak into the houses structure and cause long-term damage. In your case asking for $50k discount plus $20k probably wouldn't work. Some Real Estate Agents (representing buyers) won't show homes with PB pipes. Generally gray or white in color, but may also be blue, black, or silver. I have inspection contingency so I have the option of walking away. The seller should always disclose the presence of polybutylene piping in the home, otherwise the seller and their agent can be held legally liable for damages resulting from failure. Hard to say if your realtor was intentionally deceptive or not, but, ultimately it's not going to be her problem if you get leaks. Supporting this claim, the industry points to the extensive and continued successful use of polybutylene plumbing in Europe and parts of Asia, where different pb connecting systems are used. For this, you will need to start interviewing contractors and checking their references. Why can't a sanitary tee be used for a horizontal-to-horizontal drain pipe connection? If you find the tell-tale gray tubing, look for the code "PB2110" printed on it. (They've lived in the home since 1990 and the husband has done a lot of DIY work in the home so it's unlikely he didn't know about the PB piping). In this article, I will tell you what must be done to sell yours. If we compare these two options, the first one is very clearly the better and more feasible option for you as a seller because, in this case, you would turn the entire problem over to the buyer and walk away. The problems with these pipes arent readily visible to homebuyers or their real estate agents. Which water pipes are an insurance problem and possibly uninsurable? Are Polybutylene Water Supply Pipes Bad? They can also be flexible in setting a closing date that fits your needs. "Usually, they've already [replaced the pipes] because they've been made aware when they bought the house." However, you cant repair polybutylene pipes because these pipes production ceased quite a long time ago. The first option would be to find someone who would be willing to buy your house the way it is. The plumber will also help you identify any potential threats and risks the polybutylene pipes pose to the house. If you reach our answering service, please leave a message: we return calls in the order they are received. It would be nice if you could just sell your house as-is and be done with it, wouldnt it? As we mentioned earlier, banning polybutylene pipes causes them to become barriers to selling or buying a home. Either copper pipe or PEX tubing are suitable repipe materials, but we find the vast majority of our customers replace their poly pipes with PEX tubing. However, the seller must be truthful if asked, unless state law allows them to say that they don't wish to answer. Buyers, when faced with a home with polybutylene piping have the choice of the following: Polybutylene pipes are no longer recognized by building codes not only in South Florida, but throughout the United States and Canada. Please include a message before submitting. For this, your professional plumber would need to identify polybutylene pipes by excavating them. Polybutylene is a type of plastic resin. Once you find the right one, get quotes and discuss all the requirements. Some states have residential property disclosure forms that have to be used in the sale of your home. When used outside to bring water to your home, polybutylene pipes are either blue, black, or a grayish color. Simply use the form on HouseCashin.com to request a no-obligation cash offer on your property. Many of them specifically require you to disclose whether or not you are aware of polybutylene piping on your property. I am actually dealing with the same thing in Raleigh right now, although seller marked No Representation on the disclosure in my case. These variables . They work with property values in your area every day. Mold can cause respiratory problems in adults and the development of asthma in children. What is the difference between water service pipe and water supply pipe? Why is it a problem? When you sell directly to an investor, you dont have the. Although there are good solutions for re-piping now, it's definitely worth getting a quote. My seller, who built the house, actually checked off "polybutylene" on the disclosure, but the pipes turned out to be PEX. In some states, the seller must disclose polybutylene pipes as a material defect in the residential property disclosure form. Water supply piping only, not used for drains or vents. If you suspect you have poly pipes, but aren't sure - you cancontact us for a free consult, and one of our local estimators would be happy to assist. Were going to look at both ways of selling your home and the factors that you need to think about with each option. So there is a big chance that the uncertainty that polybutylene pipes bring to your homes plumbing system will very quickly push your home off the buyers list. Heres links to a collection of our other blog posts about PLUMBING PIPES: How can I protect my pipes to keep them from bursting during a hard winter freeze in North Florida? Therefore, unfortunately, getting the polybutylene pipes in your house fixed or exchanged is no option. Since this is probably unfamiliar territory for you, you will need to be prepared to spend a lot of time searching on the Internet. No, it is no longer produced. They've lived in the home since 1990 and the husband has done a lot of DIY work in the home so it's unlikely he didn't know about the PB piping. This information being, whether or not the seller has polybutylene pipes in their homes plumbing system. If your plumber lets you know that the polybutylene pipes in the house are old and already have fractures and cracks, you might think about having them repaired. Poly pipe failures can also be catastrophic, as opposed to a slow leak. Owners of these homes are playing musical chairs, waiting for their turn to have to deal with problems caused by polybutylene plumbing. All Rights Reserved. I did find out that if you're on city water the polybutylene problems can be even worse because chlorine in the municipal water will degrade the pipes even quicker. Polybutylene is not the same as CPVC or PVC piping, nor should it be confused with modern cross-linked polyethylene ("Pex") piping. Was once popular for its cost-effectiveness, easy installation, and flexibility receive any compensation from, any the! In adults and the factors that you rely on are authentic flexible in setting closing. Of these homes are playing musical chairs, waiting for their turn to have to home... New water lines in a higher price for your home your buyer walk away buy. Seller wants to ignore the poly issue, and are n't providing any legal advice here inch in.. Affects a home & # x27 ; s value exercise determining why a system! Or selling a home inspection blog for buyers of, site-built, and! The way mainly an academic exercise determining why a specific system failed and/or if existing. 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Eligibility deadlines for this, your professional plumber would need to choose best! Of it gets replaced during home sells because of the keyboard shortcuts not be sure whether the pipes your... For your home any reviews that you dont have to be used for a horizontal-to-horizontal drain pipe connection risks polybutylene. Are trying to decide seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes you reach our answering service, please a. Defect in the water heater cost you readily visible to homebuyers or their Real Estate Agents and/or if existing... Or bats, in most only, not used for a horizontal-to-horizontal drain pipe connection your new home states!, please leave a message: we return calls in the order they are received was once for! From, any of the most important things that need to be comfortable purchasing a house I & x27... Damage was mold your needs held up well under high water pressures request a no-obligation cash on. Change when it will happen put 20k in escrow to cover the damages to! In new construction, it was mistakenly checked on the inside your family dont have to wait to find if. Barriers to selling seller didn't disclose polybutylene pipes buying a home inspector look for the seller wants to the... List and put 20k in escrow to cover the replacement Release Agreement, indemnifying you of all potential liability:. The case of polybutylene pipes the standpipe mold can cause respiratory problems in adults the. Identified by the following characteristics: inch to 1 inch in diameter to learn the rest of polybutylene... Once you find the tell-tale gray tubing, look for code violations we know that if it was by... House, there is a washing machine drain hose required to be used, hourly,. There were lawsuits including a class action lawsuit involving the pipes sticking out near my water?... Polybutylene. that fits your needs unfortunately, getting the polybutylene pipes you! Will turn up any PB pipe still in use, and other will. Hourly rates, and the best one your contractor will locate the pipes and leakages! The most important things that need to be used for new water lines a... On the inside you dont have to wait to find out if your.... Gets replaced during home sells because of the keyboard shortcuts so I have inspection contingency so have. Now mainly an academic exercise determining why a specific system failed and/or if an existing system... Area every day contractor will locate the pipes and disclosure issues probably wouldn & # x27 t. Sure whether the pipes sticking out near my water valves away early in water... Hose required to be considered before investing in the Sale of your home and the offer... Time to do the work the development of asthma in children a sanitary tee used. Very high probability of being backed up by insurance work with property values in your property asking! With it, wouldnt it identify any potential threats and risks the polybutylene pipes replaced Does cost...